I would like to give an update on "federation" on Bluesky.

[mcc@mastodon.social]

@mnordhoff yes, the plc is another really frustrating thing

[mcc@mastodon.social]

@fabrice yeah, I dunno. I haven't noticed a load problem from the typescript implementation. I don't have a very data oriented operation over here tho

[mcc@mastodon.social]

As an update since posting the above thread I have received replies from two people, one saying I am underestimating the level of stack coverage Blacksky has, another saying I am overestimating it.

The stack is just so tall! There are *so many* layers in this protocol's model. And it seems like every single one of them is an opportunity to introduce censorship

[ozamidas@mastodon.social]

@mcc Look, Bluesky has some nice advantages over the fediverse, mainly that it's not confusing at all because it gets to the point of just being old Twitter.

Federation is not their strong point and will never be, whether we like it or not, if you want federation and multiple communities, Activitypub is by far the best option.

[mastodonmigration@mastodon.online]

@bhasic @benroyce @swetland @mcc @aeva

Yup. And get very defensive about defending the charlatan.

[mat@friendica.exon.name]

@mcc @alter_kaker @esoteric_programmer I think the key point is: "Every Bluesky replica is, probably without realizing it, making a bet that Bluesky has already plateaued." This is a worthwhile experiment, as long as you can pull the plug at a moment's notice and lose nothing.

[mat@friendica.exon.name]

@lrhodes @mcc @alter_kaker @esoteric_programmer My understanding is that relays have a "replay since timestamp X" functionality, so that consumers that go down for a while can get back up and running. Originally relays by definition had to support any X back to the beginning of time, leading to absurd storage costs. Today they are allowed to have a much shorter window, meaning in effect the storage cost is insignificant and it's the network cost that dominates. Unless I'm mistaken, the canonical store of a user's posting history is and always was the PDS.

[mat@friendica.exon.name]

@mcc @alter_kaker "I would join the Bluesky API Touchers discord"

But... why are they not using... no OK never mind.

I'm so glad for this thread! I've had a bazillion questions about AT but nowhere to ask them. I really think there should be an "other protocols" channel on activitypub.space though. This is not "Technical discussion about ActivityPub-related topics" and sooner or later someone's gonna get angry at us.

[ikuturso@mastodon.social]

@esoteric_programmer @alter_kaker @mcc as I understand it the cost of a relay has gone down because you can run it without keeping full account of the message history for all time and instead restrict what you have to a time-window.

Raises the question of whether that's good enough if we want real alternatives to the official company infra though.

[eniko@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@mcc what exactly is the benefit of migrating to a non bluesky PDS? I understand being on an entirely different vertical stack like Blacksky or Northsky but what does being on a PDS give you? Aren't you still (almost) entirely at bluesky's mercy?

[ikuturso@mastodon.social]

@jrose @mcc Even the portability being better is somewhat theoretical right now because if your identity is using did:plc then you are unable to move away from did:plc and Bluesky PBC has custody of your keys... And also like people have noticed hosting your own data in a PDS does not really make you independent from their actions so the point of doing it is somewhat unclear.

[ikuturso@mastodon.social]

@nullpotential @mcc people on Bluesky who have soured on fedi often complain about having been lectured about using alt text and CWs for what it's worth.

[ikuturso@mastodon.social]

@benroyce @txtechnician @mcc the funding is an interesting one. If we don't hear anything new about another BSky funding round in the next 6 months they'll start being close to running dry (they're currently closing in on one year since the last round that was supposed to be for two years and had a failed one early 2025)

Some of these recent troubling decisions may already be influenced by that. They've said they want to start running ads and that has implications for moderation for example.

[julian@activitypub.space]

mat@friendica.exon.name I am not opposed to a category discussing alternatives protocols.

[thisismissem@hachyderm.io]

@mat @mcc @alter_kaker I can recommend joining ATProto Touchers discord (was renamed a few months ago)

[mat@friendica.exon.name]

@mcc @thisismissem @alter_kaker Noted, but I don't really want to create another online account. I've never used Discord in my life, and not really keen to start. In any case, I'm after the AP-side perspective of how AT works.

[thisismissem@hachyderm.io]

@mat @mcc @alter_kaker I also use discord for Mastodon and Fedify development, but don't feel obliged to join, I'm just saying it's a good server

[lrhodes@merveilles.town]

@mat @mcc @alter_kaker @esoteric_programmer I would think making the PDS the canonical store would conflict with the idea of credible exit. You end up either weakening the notion of canonicity since moving an account changes the canonical location, or undermining the credibility of exit since canonical location stays with a PDS the author has left.

[mat@friendica.exon.name]

@lrhodes @mcc @alter_kaker @esoteric_programmer This moves into a lot of stuff about distributed identity that I don't get. But certainly the Fediverse has the same problem. Ultimately the credible exit is waving goodbye to your history, somehow letting your followers know you've got a new handle, and hoping they update their contacts. That sounds hard, but it's still a fairly credible exit, since your followers don't have to move too.

[carcosa@functional.cafe]

@eniko @mcc If I understand correctly (and it is possible and likely that I don't), if you host your own PDS, you can use the rest of the stack from Bluesky, get banned, and migrate to Blacksky without losing your post history. And theoretically your social graph, though in practice Bluesky will be blocking almost everyone in it.

I've no interest in it either way, given that Bluesky is the toxic liberalism site in the same way that X the Everything App is the toxic reactionary site.