I gotta admit, I am loving how little of the conversation is just "BlueSky bad!
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@mastodonmigration But yes, that particular issue, I have not heard/seen any updates either.
@stefan @mastodonmigration
Yes, @mekkaokereke and I spoke about to how best present Quote Posts and his advice had a direct impact on what we shipped. We're about to reach out for another round of discussions with a wide range of people (but I don't think we've contacted Mekka just yet)It's so tempting to take the engineering approach and think "this feature will do it!" when we likely need to back up and talk about bigger issues such as culture and moderation.
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@mekkaokereke I choose Mastodon.
I was already here before Bluesky and Spoutible came along. I came here from the dead bird site after Elmo took over.
I feel safer here. I can wield the block button a lot quicker here.
Plus I can use language that I don't feel comfortable using on those other sites.
Oh,and Mastodon is international. Including the Diaspora.
I'm on those other sites,but I feel more at home on Mastodon.
@IveyJanette @mekkaokereke "Oh,and Mastodon is international." This is one of the main reasons why I'm here and not on BS. Pre-Musk Twitter was already overwhelmingly American, and it just made non-US discourse a lot harder because Americans would reply-guy with assumptions that it was all about them. Fedi is a lot more culturally diverse when it comes to nationality. That said, I am happy to hear that the racism issue is being acknowledged more, it definitely was a very ugly blind spot here.
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@stefan @mastodonmigration
Yes, @mekkaokereke and I spoke about to how best present Quote Posts and his advice had a direct impact on what we shipped. We're about to reach out for another round of discussions with a wide range of people (but I don't think we've contacted Mekka just yet)It's so tempting to take the engineering approach and think "this feature will do it!" when we likely need to back up and talk about bigger issues such as culture and moderation.
@scottjenson @stefan @mekkaokereke
It is great to see this conversation take off. You did a fabulous job with quote posts and it would be wonderful if this issue could get the same kind of careful attention. Completely agree that a proper requirements driven approach is warranted. Thank you.
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@scottjenson @stefan @mekkaokereke
It is great to see this conversation take off. You did a fabulous job with quote posts and it would be wonderful if this issue could get the same kind of careful attention. Completely agree that a proper requirements driven approach is warranted. Thank you.
@mastodonmigration always happy to chat
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@mastodonmigration always happy to chat
@scottjenson
@mekkaokereke
@stefanGreat. Just to be really clear. What seems to be the issue is a type of hidden dogpiling or 'brigading.'
A tight group folks who's purpose is to harass someone follow each other, 'the brigade'.
One of them composes a harassing post specifically targeting someone who they @ mention, and post it using "Followers Only" reply controls.
The rest of the 'brigade' piles on.
The post is only seen by the targeted person(s) and the harassers.
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@scottjenson
@mekkaokereke
@stefanGreat. Just to be really clear. What seems to be the issue is a type of hidden dogpiling or 'brigading.'
A tight group folks who's purpose is to harass someone follow each other, 'the brigade'.
One of them composes a harassing post specifically targeting someone who they @ mention, and post it using "Followers Only" reply controls.
The rest of the 'brigade' piles on.
The post is only seen by the targeted person(s) and the harassers.
@scottjenson @mekkaokereke @stefan
There may be other similar issues, but this one clearly seems to be a problem that is often cited.
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@IveyJanette @mekkaokereke "Oh,and Mastodon is international." This is one of the main reasons why I'm here and not on BS. Pre-Musk Twitter was already overwhelmingly American, and it just made non-US discourse a lot harder because Americans would reply-guy with assumptions that it was all about them. Fedi is a lot more culturally diverse when it comes to nationality. That said, I am happy to hear that the racism issue is being acknowledged more, it definitely was a very ugly blind spot here.
@ainmosni @IveyJanette @mekkaokereke
I would not say that. I made contact with some awesome people from outside Europe and North America on Old Twitter by deliberately seeking them out, such as an electrical engineer from Kenya or a folklore researcher from Pakistan. They were actually out there, though the algorithm favored people from your own cultural environment.
Mastodon, on the other hand, has a user base that is _heavily_ centered on Europe and North America. I have been wondering how to change that for quite some time.
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I gotta admit, I am loving how little of the conversation is just "BlueSky bad! Mastodon good!
" and how much of it is "BlueSky is not ideal for Black users, but let's be for real, neither is Mastodon. We don't have control over BlueSky, but we do have some agency with Mastodon. How can we make Mastodon better? Where are we with improving the issues that make this place unwelcoming for Black users? Clearly, more Black users chose BlueSky than Mastodon. Have we addressed the reasons why?" 
️🥹Seriously, I count ~5 conversations in the improvement framing direction. I love to see it! Shame on me for having lower expectations.
I'm unapologetically backing improvements across ActivityPub and ATProto. I back Hachyderm/Mastodon and BlackSky. You can just back both teams! Nothing in the rules says you can't do that!
a place uncomfortable for black people? on the fediverse i have never been in touch with a topic related to the skin color of somebody. to me - it simply does not exist. which is nice! …while in x, insta and probably all other centralized/directed/biased social media apps it is all about armageddon… seems the techelite wants to push the world into chaos. as they consider crises as a good business model to become richer
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a place uncomfortable for black people? on the fediverse i have never been in touch with a topic related to the skin color of somebody. to me - it simply does not exist. which is nice! …while in x, insta and probably all other centralized/directed/biased social media apps it is all about armageddon… seems the techelite wants to push the world into chaos. as they consider crises as a good business model to become richer
I’ve seen a lot of posts from black folks who have encountered racism here, far more than would let me dismiss it as statistical outliers (no platform will ever make everyone happy, but if the people who are unhappy are clustered in a particular demographic then it’s a symptom of bias).
The thing that confuses me is that a lot of other marginalised groups seem to constantly report either positive or less-negative-than-elsewhere experiences here. I am curious why, for example, trans people seem to have better experiences than black people here. It suggests that prejudices against different groups are manifesting in different ways and that the tools for addressing the arising problems need to be different. I’ve not yet seen anyone articulating what the differences are though, and since I tend to see these things only second or third hand, I am not able to answer the question myself.
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I’ve seen a lot of posts from black folks who have encountered racism here, far more than would let me dismiss it as statistical outliers (no platform will ever make everyone happy, but if the people who are unhappy are clustered in a particular demographic then it’s a symptom of bias).
The thing that confuses me is that a lot of other marginalised groups seem to constantly report either positive or less-negative-than-elsewhere experiences here. I am curious why, for example, trans people seem to have better experiences than black people here. It suggests that prejudices against different groups are manifesting in different ways and that the tools for addressing the arising problems need to be different. I’ve not yet seen anyone articulating what the differences are though, and since I tend to see these things only second or third hand, I am not able to answer the question myself.
@david_chisnall what do you mean when saying here?
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@david_chisnall what do you mean when saying here?
@frocksupreme The Fediverse.
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@frocksupreme The Fediverse.
everybody creates an ownbubble. racism is not part if mine. i bubble other topics. never met racism on mastodon. but my impression is, mastodon is less radicalized than bluesky. on bluesky there is a difference…
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I gotta admit, I am loving how little of the conversation is just "BlueSky bad! Mastodon good!
" and how much of it is "BlueSky is not ideal for Black users, but let's be for real, neither is Mastodon. We don't have control over BlueSky, but we do have some agency with Mastodon. How can we make Mastodon better? Where are we with improving the issues that make this place unwelcoming for Black users? Clearly, more Black users chose BlueSky than Mastodon. Have we addressed the reasons why?" ️🥹Seriously, I count ~5 conversations in the improvement framing direction. I love to see it! Shame on me for having lower expectations.
I'm unapologetically backing improvements across ActivityPub and ATProto. I back Hachyderm/Mastodon and BlackSky. You can just back both teams! Nothing in the rules says you can't do that!
Some of us like to think that we are capable of learning, if we are hit over the heads with the facts often enough.
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I gotta admit, I am loving how little of the conversation is just "BlueSky bad! Mastodon good!
" and how much of it is "BlueSky is not ideal for Black users, but let's be for real, neither is Mastodon. We don't have control over BlueSky, but we do have some agency with Mastodon. How can we make Mastodon better? Where are we with improving the issues that make this place unwelcoming for Black users? Clearly, more Black users chose BlueSky than Mastodon. Have we addressed the reasons why?" ️🥹Seriously, I count ~5 conversations in the improvement framing direction. I love to see it! Shame on me for having lower expectations.
I'm unapologetically backing improvements across ActivityPub and ATProto. I back Hachyderm/Mastodon and BlackSky. You can just back both teams! Nothing in the rules says you can't do that!
mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io will you be at FediForum? I'm positive someone will start a session today about BlueSky's latest controversies and how the fediverse can be re-evaluated in order to provide a better alternative.
cc juergen_hubert@mementomori.social scottjenson@social.coop mastodonmigration@mastodon.online thisismissem@hachyderm.io stefan@stefanbohacek.online
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@ainmosni @IveyJanette @mekkaokereke
I would not say that. I made contact with some awesome people from outside Europe and North America on Old Twitter by deliberately seeking them out, such as an electrical engineer from Kenya or a folklore researcher from Pakistan. They were actually out there, though the algorithm favored people from your own cultural environment.
Mastodon, on the other hand, has a user base that is _heavily_ centered on Europe and North America. I have been wondering how to change that for quite some time.
@juergen_hubert @ainmosni @IveyJanette @mekkaokereke
Here are some threads by @feralthoughts on the current issues with bringing in folks from the global south that I found very thoughtful and informative:
https://union.place/@feralthoughts/114030586394502623
https://union.place/@feralthoughts/114037639193329163 -
everybody creates an ownbubble. racism is not part if mine. i bubble other topics. never met racism on mastodon. but my impression is, mastodon is less radicalized than bluesky. on bluesky there is a difference…
@frocksupreme Trans people have more safety in numbers here than POC.
One very easy trick to hide dogpiling from everybody else is to make a followers-only post and tag the person you're harassing.
Also, white folx like us don't always recognize racism for what it is when we see it.
For the history, https://logicmag.io/policy/blackness-in-the-fediverse-a-conversation-with-marcia-x/ is a good read
On what you can do now, https://privacy.thenexus.today/start-making-the-fediverse-less-toxic/
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@frocksupreme Trans people have more safety in numbers here than POC.
One very easy trick to hide dogpiling from everybody else is to make a followers-only post and tag the person you're harassing.
Also, white folx like us don't always recognize racism for what it is when we see it.
For the history, https://logicmag.io/policy/blackness-in-the-fediverse-a-conversation-with-marcia-x/ is a good read
On what you can do now, https://privacy.thenexus.today/start-making-the-fediverse-less-toxic/
@gunchleoc i never experienced racism on mastodon. and thats my point. nothing else. i am speaking out for myself not everybody. i have never been criticized as a racist ever before and which of course i am not. but i am surprised how aggressively some ppl. try to misunderstand & push it towards a wanted result. it completely misses reality & probably shows how unsuitable they are to be social on a social medium
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@gunchleoc i never experienced racism on mastodon. and thats my point. nothing else. i am speaking out for myself not everybody. i have never been criticized as a racist ever before and which of course i am not. but i am surprised how aggressively some ppl. try to misunderstand & push it towards a wanted result. it completely misses reality & probably shows how unsuitable they are to be social on a social medium
@frocksupreme Most of the racism I've seen here I've only seen because I follow the fediblock hashtag. Some pretty vile stuff gets reported there.
Without that and without following any black users, I would be completely oblivious of this thing going on, because my corner of the fedi doesn't get harassed.
So, yes, what you see depends a lot on your bubble.
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@scottjenson
@mekkaokereke
@stefanGreat. Just to be really clear. What seems to be the issue is a type of hidden dogpiling or 'brigading.'
A tight group folks who's purpose is to harass someone follow each other, 'the brigade'.
One of them composes a harassing post specifically targeting someone who they @ mention, and post it using "Followers Only" reply controls.
The rest of the 'brigade' piles on.
The post is only seen by the targeted person(s) and the harassers.
@mastodonmigration @stefan
Can you help me understand how followers only posts are harder for moderation to catch? I understand they are not public but they can still be reported? I'm trying to tackle this problem from the moderation agle as a server block helps so many more people (if we can pull it off) -
@mastodonmigration @stefan
Can you help me understand how followers only posts are harder for moderation to catch? I understand they are not public but they can still be reported? I'm trying to tackle this problem from the moderation agle as a server block helps so many more people (if we can pull it off)@mastodonmigration @stefan My other question is accounts like this seem likely to get blocked from your server for other reasons. They would have to use this trick 100% of the time to avoid detection.
I'm NOT saying this isn't happening. I'm just trying to understand how these accounts behave so we can find, I hope, an even better way of shutting them down.
