Hey @bonfire @mayel and crew, if you ever feel like putting a spec down to attach academic citations to #ActivityPub objects for your Open Science Network, ping me.
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That would be great! We anyway want to federate link preview metadata (I see there's https://helge.codeberg.page/fep/fep/8967/ though nobody seems to have implemented it yet) so it'd be great if it was done as an extension of that, so that non-scientific platforms can still show a subset of the preview information at least? And yeah looking to existing schemas to pull in sounds great, maybe we can collaborate on a FEP draft that just points to those and shows some examples?
@bonfire I like FEP-8967, but my intuition is that citation information is kind of orthogonal to link previews. It could well make sense for software to emit/consume both, but if I'm federating an academic article like https://fietkau.science/content_interaction_public_displays, do I want to bundle 25 link previews? It seems incongruent to how those are used. More crucially, not every academic citation will have a URL, it might just be an old book with title + author + publisher + year.
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@bonfire I like FEP-8967, but my intuition is that citation information is kind of orthogonal to link previews. It could well make sense for software to emit/consume both, but if I'm federating an academic article like https://fietkau.science/content_interaction_public_displays, do I want to bundle 25 link previews? It seems incongruent to how those are used. More crucially, not every academic citation will have a URL, it might just be an old book with title + author + publisher + year.
ah based on that example we may be talking about different things, so far we've been thinking more of how you would federate and preview the metadata of https://fietkau.science/content_interaction_public_displays (assuming it is a publication or any kind of research object) rather than how you'd federate all the references if that text was published directly on the fediverse... which could be done different but also it could be app to the UI to decide if/how to use/display the link metadata
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Have you also looked at:
1. https://schema.datacite.org
2. DOI Kernel Schema
3. ORCID seems to use CreativeWork from schema.org (we fetch orcid records in JSON but I'd have to double check what schema that's giving us) https://iphylo.blogspot.com/2020/01/orcid-serves-schemaorg-linked-data-via.html@bonfire A bit, yeah. I'm sure each one has pros and cons for the purpose, but I'm in favor of picking something that's ready for use with linked data. We might be able to avoid defining a new JSON-LD context that way.
schema.org's CreativeWork is a supertype of ScholarlyArticle. Curious why ORCID doesn't use the subtypes even though they have the type information in their own data. (Their JSON schema is altogether different from their JSON-LD I think.)
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ah based on that example we may be talking about different things, so far we've been thinking more of how you would federate and preview the metadata of https://fietkau.science/content_interaction_public_displays (assuming it is a publication or any kind of research object) rather than how you'd federate all the references if that text was published directly on the fediverse... which could be done different but also it could be app to the UI to decide if/how to use/display the link metadata
@julian @bonfire @mayel @jonny
With #OpenScience we talk of an entire field that has a lot to fight for, given all that's wrong around academic publishing processes and the strangehold of commercial parties.
Also a field full of people who might design/deliver rock-solid robust & *interoperable* open standard specifications.
There's ample opportunity to start something like ForgeFed, a dedicated protocol extension spec. Working name: #ScienceFed and it can be homed at https://codeberg.org/fediverse
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@bonfire @julian @mayel @jonny @smallcircles
see also http://purl.org/spar/cito with an explainer at http://www.sparontologies.net/ontologies/cito
@trwnh Thanks, I hadn't come across this. Nice and detailed. I like that this can encode the type of citation (discusses, summarizes, critiques, ...), I don't love that it does it with a long list of optional properties on the citation object rather than one property with a value range. Feels like it'd be a pain to parse for plain JSON consumers this way. Will think on it more.
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@trwnh Thanks, I hadn't come across this. Nice and detailed. I like that this can encode the type of citation (discusses, summarizes, critiques, ...), I don't love that it does it with a long list of optional properties on the citation object rather than one property with a value range. Feels like it'd be a pain to parse for plain JSON consumers this way. Will think on it more.
@julian @bonfire @mayel @jonny @smallcircles
you can reify the citation as a Citation object and then express the type of citation with the hasCitationCharacterization property? see the explainer's first example on "direct form" vs "reified form"
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@bonfire A bit, yeah. I'm sure each one has pros and cons for the purpose, but I'm in favor of picking something that's ready for use with linked data. We might be able to avoid defining a new JSON-LD context that way.
schema.org's CreativeWork is a supertype of ScholarlyArticle. Curious why ORCID doesn't use the subtypes even though they have the type information in their own data. (Their JSON schema is altogether different from their JSON-LD I think.)
makes sense, though would be great to heard from academics on this, whether involved/informed on the the topic of schemas or not...
and thanks for the hint, will have to check if we're getting the regular json version instead of the json-ld one...
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makes sense, though would be great to heard from academics on this, whether involved/informed on the the topic of schemas or not...
and thanks for the hint, will have to check if we're getting the regular json version instead of the json-ld one...
Obligatory reference when looking at standards
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Obligatory reference when looking at standards
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@bonfire @julian @mayel @jonny
At least I will state my interest from the perspective of custodian of Social coding commons movement, which has an ambition that open science becomes seamlessly embedded within the commons with lowest barriers to free knowledge transfer towards broader society and back.
The chaordic organization formula that I am pondering allows for pillars to be created around specific themes, to help make them strategically and organically grow over time. Like Open Science.
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ah based on that example we may be talking about different things, so far we've been thinking more of how you would federate and preview the metadata of https://fietkau.science/content_interaction_public_displays (assuming it is a publication or any kind of research object) rather than how you'd federate all the references if that text was published directly on the fediverse... which could be done different but also it could be app to the UI to decide if/how to use/display the link metadata
@bonfire Right β with OSN you're also thinking about academic creation, not only sharing? So letting authors declaratively cite specific sources in their posts could be good, as would searching/filtering for βwhat else cites thisβ.
Although tbh, my motivation for now is interop between Encyclia and OSN.
I want Bonfire to recognize Encyclia posts as what they are (automated metadata summaries of specific academic works) and separate those from human discussions. -
@bonfire @julian @mayel @jonny
At least I will state my interest from the perspective of custodian of Social coding commons movement, which has an ambition that open science becomes seamlessly embedded within the commons with lowest barriers to free knowledge transfer towards broader society and back.
The chaordic organization formula that I am pondering allows for pillars to be created around specific themes, to help make them strategically and organically grow over time. Like Open Science.
@bonfire @julian @mayel @jonny
Oh, I should also mention that I intend to port and reboot https://fedi.foundation which I can also offer as a place where ScienceFed can inform the public about its work.
This site is intended to be a multi-author publishing service for participants in Social coding commons, specifically around themes of applied research for the social web of tomorrow.
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@bonfire @julian @mayel @jonny
Oh, I should also mention that I intend to port and reboot https://fedi.foundation which I can also offer as a place where ScienceFed can inform the public about its work.
This site is intended to be a multi-author publishing service for participants in Social coding commons, specifically around themes of applied research for the social web of tomorrow.
@smallcircles @julian @mayel @jonny does it federate?
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@bonfire Right β with OSN you're also thinking about academic creation, not only sharing? So letting authors declaratively cite specific sources in their posts could be good, as would searching/filtering for βwhat else cites thisβ.
Although tbh, my motivation for now is interop between Encyclia and OSN.
I want Bonfire to recognize Encyclia posts as what they are (automated metadata summaries of specific academic works) and separate those from human discussions.That should be easy enough to get working as-is to begin with, and we can then progressively enhance with schemas?
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@julian @bonfire @mayel @jonny
With #OpenScience we talk of an entire field that has a lot to fight for, given all that's wrong around academic publishing processes and the strangehold of commercial parties.
Also a field full of people who might design/deliver rock-solid robust & *interoperable* open standard specifications.
There's ample opportunity to start something like ForgeFed, a dedicated protocol extension spec. Working name: #ScienceFed and it can be homed at https://codeberg.org/fediverse
@smallcircles @julian @bonfire @mayel @jonny
for illustrative examples, see https://linkedresearch.org/calls#contributions-and-review and https://csarven.ca/linked-data-notifications
go ahead, inspect the html, try to fetch it as json-ld, the works
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@smallcircles @julian @bonfire @mayel @jonny
for illustrative examples, see https://linkedresearch.org/calls#contributions-and-review and https://csarven.ca/linked-data-notifications
go ahead, inspect the html, try to fetch it as json-ld, the works
@trwnh
@smallcircles @julian @bonfire @mayel
Ya ya. Adding LD to documents is easy. Making use of it at scale is hard. -
@trwnh
@smallcircles @julian @bonfire @mayel
Ya ya. Adding LD to documents is easy. Making use of it at scale is hard.@jonny @smallcircles @julian @bonfire @mayel i am finding that the challenge isn't so much "making use of it as scale" as it is specifically "being understood at scale". it's a problem that we have even with natural language. you have the capability to make use of information that you understand, but it's the understanding that's the hard part. and also discovering that information in the first place, and being able to find it when you need it. compared to that, use cases are straightforward.
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@jonny @smallcircles @julian @bonfire @mayel i am finding that the challenge isn't so much "making use of it as scale" as it is specifically "being understood at scale". it's a problem that we have even with natural language. you have the capability to make use of information that you understand, but it's the understanding that's the hard part. and also discovering that information in the first place, and being able to find it when you need it. compared to that, use cases are straightforward.
@trwnh
@smallcircles @julian @bonfire @mayel
I think basically we are saying the same thing because understanding is a prerequisite to use for me so yes, agreed. -
@trwnh
@smallcircles @julian @bonfire @mayel
I think basically we are saying the same thing because understanding is a prerequisite to use for me so yes, agreed.@trwnh
As a side note, I think RDFa is a great idea, I tried to use it in a document and make a markdown preprocessor to be able to use it with semantic mediawiki-style wikilinks[[predicate::object|display text]]where the document is the implicit subject, or[[subject::predicate::object]]and have those render out asaelements with RDFa. But then I learned thatrdflibhad dropped support and there weren't any actively developed parsers, so I gave up because I wasn't gonna write one and what's the point in writing something that can't be parsed easily.
