Recently there has been a lot of discourse about ActivityPub and AT Protocol which has been quite dividing and heated.
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@thisismissem i strongly disagree with this. bluesky is only decentralized on paper, and in reality, only a tiny fraction of its users aren't reliant on bluesky's hosting. if bsky.social suddenly disappears, almost all of ATProto goes down with it. the same can't be said about mastodon.social, which is the biggest instance, but the fediverse will survive if it suddenly disappears. according to https://arewedecentralizedyet.online, only 55,500 people are on non-bluesky owned PDSes, so blueksy could just (1/3)
@thisismissem turn off federation, and force everyone else back onto bluesky-owned PDSes. facebook did the same thing before. facebook messenger used to be part of XMPP, a decentralized instant messaging protocol, allowing people on FB messenger to message people who didn't use FB messenger. but one day, facebook just turned off federation (source: https://fedi.tips/its-a-really-bad-idea-to-join-a-big-server/#:~:text=There%20is%20also%20a%20precedent,Facebook%20to%20switch%20off%20federation), cutting off people from outside messenger, and making it so messenger users could only chat with other messenger users(2/3)
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@thisismissem @breathOfLife @ikuturso @stefan
Yes, the Blacksky migration was impressive. It still did not change the overall percentage distribution numbers very much. It seems like proponents of AT Protocol should welcome criticism of too much dominance of Bluesky PBC and support more independent Blacksky type efforts.
Why, if Bluesky is actually serious about wanting AT Protocol to be decentralized, is there not more overt support for moving the numbers in a truly meaningful way.
@mastodonmigration @thisismissem @ikuturso @stefan
my comrade in christ
the reason that blacksky have their own relay implementation is because bluesky NEVER RELEASED THEIRS IN THE FIRST PLACE.
they left half the protocol unfinished in a deliberate attempt to centralize control.
then rudy fraser decided "fuck that" and proceeded to build atproto.africa, severely fucking that attempt six ways until sunday and putting atproto on the map as a serious protocol as opposed to a complete joke.
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@mirabilos @thisismissem @ahltorp And even without that, the choice of a copyright license also doesn't means anything about the ecosystem and it's architecture.
BlueSky is built for massive silos with technically allowing communication between them but that's an admin setting.@lanodan @mirabilos @ahltorp you mean MIT / Apache 2.0 license? https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto/blob/main/LICENSE.txt
The social-app repository is also under what appears to be a MIT license except where explicitly noted otherwise.
And Blacksky's rsky is under Apache license: https://github.com/blacksky-algorithms/rsky/blob/main/LICENSE
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@thisismissem I would add that both protocols support use cases that the other protocol has a hard time addressing. ActivityPub, for example, is much better at point to point communication where no third party overhears what is happening. ATproto, for example, can be used to build “global trending” or a global index much more easily.
I would not be surprised if at the end of they, the open social web would simultaneously end up using both, in a complementary fashion.@thisismissem @j12t It follows that AP is best suited to talking to friends, while AT is best suited to talking to strangers. And there is a far larger demand for the former than the latter. So I'd predict a future where AT evolves into a high-performance enclave embedded inside AP. -
@thisismissem turn off federation, and force everyone else back onto bluesky-owned PDSes. facebook did the same thing before. facebook messenger used to be part of XMPP, a decentralized instant messaging protocol, allowing people on FB messenger to message people who didn't use FB messenger. but one day, facebook just turned off federation (source: https://fedi.tips/its-a-really-bad-idea-to-join-a-big-server/#:~:text=There%20is%20also%20a%20precedent,Facebook%20to%20switch%20off%20federation), cutting off people from outside messenger, and making it so messenger users could only chat with other messenger users(2/3)
@jakeyounglol there's multiple archiving relays, and you can always point your domain somewhere else (if you bring your own domain). The protocol is designed to resist such a hostile takeover though.
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@thisismissem @j12t It follows that AP is best suited to talking to friends, while AT is best suited to talking to strangers. And there is a far larger demand for the former than the latter. So I'd predict a future where AT evolves into a high-performance enclave embedded inside AP.
@mat “AP is best suited to talking to friends, while AT is best suited to talking to strangers”. That is great framing, I’m going to steal this! (with credit!)
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Recently there has been a lot of discourse about ActivityPub and AT Protocol which has been quite dividing and heated.
Yesterday at the Social Web CG meeting (the group that maintains the ActivityPub and related specifications), I proposed releasing a statement that counters the narrative that one of these protocols must win, when both protocols can co-exist and have a lot to learn from each other.
The statement has been co-signed by various members of both Social Web CG, SocialCG, and the AT Protocol community.
“We do not win by tearing each other down, which only emboldens and empowers those who do not want either protocol to succeed.”
“Arguing between us only emboldens those that seek to derail and destroy efforts to build an open social web.”
You can read the full statement here:
https://github.com/swicg/general/blob/master/statements/2025-09-05-activitypub-and-atproto-discourse.md@thisismissem
I've always thought the most important and strategic difference between the two protocols is governance. AT is maintained by a company, and Activitypub by a non-profit organization. -
@thisismissem
I've always thought the most important and strategic difference between the two protocols is governance. AT is maintained by a company, and Activitypub by a non-profit organization.@skarnio AT Protocol is moving to being maintained by community, though they're just starting this process
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@mastodonmigration @thisismissem @ikuturso @stefan
my comrade in christ
the reason that blacksky have their own relay implementation is because bluesky NEVER RELEASED THEIRS IN THE FIRST PLACE.
they left half the protocol unfinished in a deliberate attempt to centralize control.
then rudy fraser decided "fuck that" and proceeded to build atproto.africa, severely fucking that attempt six ways until sunday and putting atproto on the map as a serious protocol as opposed to a complete joke.
@breathOfLife @thisismissem @ikuturso @stefan
Interesting. Did not know this.
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@mastodonmigration Apologies for butting in, but I think https://atp.fyi/network does a better job at showing how decentralized Bluesky/ATProto really is, compared to this site you shared, which, as it explains, only takes PDSs into account.
@stefan @mastodonmigration @thisismissem
This is interesting, but the only parts of the network that look decentralized on this graph are feeds and labelers - and almost every feed and almost every labeler I hovered over is exclusively connected to Bluesky PBC relays (and no others) and exclusively consumed by the PBC's AppView (and no others).
So the graph does show that anybody can provide *metadata* for AT, but the large scale structure of the network still looks quite centralized to me.
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@stefan @mastodonmigration @thisismissem
This is interesting, but the only parts of the network that look decentralized on this graph are feeds and labelers - and almost every feed and almost every labeler I hovered over is exclusively connected to Bluesky PBC relays (and no others) and exclusively consumed by the PBC's AppView (and no others).
So the graph does show that anybody can provide *metadata* for AT, but the large scale structure of the network still looks quite centralized to me.
@fontenot Yes, you are absolutely correct, of course!
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@fontenot Yes, you are absolutely correct, of course!
@stefan @fontenot @mastodonmigration I'm certain in time this graph will change, just as that of ActivityPub adoption and distribution has changed over the years.
AP has a 5 year head start at least here compared to AT Protocol, and I think the efforts ongoing at promising.
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@breathOfLife @thisismissem @ikuturso @stefan
Interesting. Did not know this.
@mastodonmigration @breathOfLife @thisismissem @ikuturso @stefan That's because it's not true, it's completely normal to not know things that aren't real
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@mastodonmigration @breathOfLife @thisismissem @ikuturso @stefan That's because it's not true, it's completely normal to not know things that aren't real
@mastodonmigration @breathOfLife @thisismissem @ikuturso @stefan The relay (formerly "BGS") code has been open source since at least April 2023: https://bsky.app/profile/dholms.xyz/post/3jt33v44njk26
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@stefan @fontenot @mastodonmigration I'm certain in time this graph will change, just as that of ActivityPub adoption and distribution has changed over the years.
AP has a 5 year head start at least here compared to AT Protocol, and I think the efforts ongoing at promising.
@thisismissem @stefan @fontenot
Hope you are right. And hope the community puts pressure on Bluesky PBC to help facilitate this shift.
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@mastodonmigration @breathOfLife @thisismissem @ikuturso @stefan The relay (formerly "BGS") code has been open source since at least April 2023: https://bsky.app/profile/dholms.xyz/post/3jt33v44njk26
@mackuba @breathOfLife @thisismissem @ikuturso @stefan
No knowledge of any of this. Kuba has been a good source of information on all things Bluesky to us over here in the Fediverse.
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@mastodonmigration @breathOfLife @thisismissem @ikuturso @stefan The relay (formerly "BGS") code has been open source since at least April 2023: https://bsky.app/profile/dholms.xyz/post/3jt33v44njk26
@mackuba @mastodonmigration @thisismissem @ikuturso @stefan
huh
then i guess the hoo-hah about atproto not being decentralized came simply from bluesky being a for-profit company.
which, fair enough, profit DOES incentivize enshittification and lock-in, and activitypub is mostly built as a service anyway in reaction to that.
suffice to say, there's always been a general vibe here that atproto was just a bluesky thing.
it took community effort to give atproto legs.
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@mackuba @mastodonmigration @thisismissem @ikuturso @stefan
huh
then i guess the hoo-hah about atproto not being decentralized came simply from bluesky being a for-profit company.
which, fair enough, profit DOES incentivize enshittification and lock-in, and activitypub is mostly built as a service anyway in reaction to that.
suffice to say, there's always been a general vibe here that atproto was just a bluesky thing.
it took community effort to give atproto legs.
@breathOfLife @mackuba @mastodonmigration @ikuturso @stefan they're not "for-profit" in the traditional sense, being a public benefit corporation (that's what PBC stands for in Bluesky PBC), but in most locales, even your non-profits are technically for-profit corporations.
e.g., Mastodon gGmbH is still a GmbH (especially so when German authorities stripped them of non-profit status due to weird/bad german laws)
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@breathOfLife @mackuba @mastodonmigration @ikuturso @stefan they're not "for-profit" in the traditional sense, being a public benefit corporation (that's what PBC stands for in Bluesky PBC), but in most locales, even your non-profits are technically for-profit corporations.
e.g., Mastodon gGmbH is still a GmbH (especially so when German authorities stripped them of non-profit status due to weird/bad german laws)
@thisismissem @mackuba @mastodonmigration @ikuturso @stefan
didn't mastodon bother to actually fight that ruling in court though?
that and founding a 501(c)(3) company specifically to get around the tax office.
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@thisismissem @mackuba @mastodonmigration @ikuturso @stefan
didn't mastodon bother to actually fight that ruling in court though?
that and founding a 501(c)(3) company specifically to get around the tax office.
@breathOfLife @mackuba @mastodonmigration @ikuturso @stefan not sure, but they are currently forming a new EU non-profit. My point still stands that the legal structures are mostly the same: a gGmbH must reinvest in itself instead of pay out to shareholders, and a PBC needs to create benefit for the public instead of for shareholders
