Jack Dorsey skipped ActivityPub, built AtProto, lost Twitter, funded Bluesky, watched it become a company with VCs and a board, said it was "repeating all the mistakes," left, and now funds Nostr.
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@McNeely @ricci @thisismissem No, it's the reddit-like: lemmy, mbin, piefed, nodebb and even discourse. Basically forums
@rakoo @ricci @thisismissem thanks!
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@julian @rakoo @thisismissem I think it would be great to hear about how the experience could potentially be improved for communities. The local timeline exists but it certainly isn't prominently featured.
Even then, the local timeline is more of a "catch-all" bucket for discussing anything, not really topic-focused.
Which isn't wrong, per se, just a different way of presenting content, one that loses a lot of context (context collapse, one could call it
) -
Even then, the local timeline is more of a "catch-all" bucket for discussing anything, not really topic-focused.
Which isn't wrong, per se, just a different way of presenting content, one that loses a lot of context (context collapse, one could call it
) -
@thisismissem @ricci
yes, if we're looking at mastodon and the model it has created that all microblogging apps have copied, then community doesn't really exist in the technical parts but must be artificially built up. The more interesting example is the threadiverse where communities are literal spaces: people congregate towards one or any number, they are independent from your server and from your identity. This, to me, feels closer to how communities start to create: pick an obvious topic, make obvious-y rules about what is on-topic or not to guide what people can talk about, then possibly graduate from there to another form (maybe a specific, closed community with your people). I do think more visibility should be given to the threadiverse rather than microblogging, or even mastodon, because of all the problems you have listed. And the future direction of AP should definitely split the server from the usage and build apps on the client only !I think it's nuts that Masto doesn't have local-only posts, it would be the easiest thing in the world to do, it's entirely natural to the underlying data model. Good on blacksky for building it first.
Re: @thisismissem 's point AP not directly matching how communities form, this is the kind of thing I had in mind when I said that neither AP nor activitypub is directly modeling human interaction. But AP is closer because there are large chunks of the fediverse where it does actually fit community. The instance I'm on is one such example, the local feed is heavily slanted towards people who have interests related to me, we moderate based on our own community standards, and all that. Many of the people I interact with are on similarly-sized instances that have their own noticeable community.
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@rakoo @ricci AP as implemented places you on a server which is your identity, that server is a specific vertical of a online social presence (microblogging, images, videos, short videos, articles, forums, link aggregator)
The AP C2S model separates to a degree the identity from the application. You do still only have one social graph and inbox/outbox, so it's not ideal, most people have different social groups on different verticals of platforms.
But as long as AP is deployed in the topology and systems it is today, it does not do the "thing" that people do socially.
Mastodon doesn't give you a "community" just because you're on the same server (no local only posting, local feed is too noisy on larger servers), Loops arguably removes all local community thanks to algorithmic feed – I don't think they've a local feed that I've seen in press.
AT Protocol makes getting into social spaces in different verticals easy. Conceptually AP C2S is very similar: you have a place that is your identity + data, and then you join places with that identity (maybe customising the identity or social graph for that vertical application)
I'll say that the verticals are one of the aspects of atproto that I am *least* excited about. I am extremely unexcited about the idea that takedowns on my social media account could also take down my git hosting repos and my blog and my instant messaging and my ....
But hey, 'login with facebook' does exist, and I guess a lot of people must use it? so I guess there is some revealed preference there.
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I think it's nuts that Masto doesn't have local-only posts, it would be the easiest thing in the world to do, it's entirely natural to the underlying data model. Good on blacksky for building it first.
Re: @thisismissem 's point AP not directly matching how communities form, this is the kind of thing I had in mind when I said that neither AP nor activitypub is directly modeling human interaction. But AP is closer because there are large chunks of the fediverse where it does actually fit community. The instance I'm on is one such example, the local feed is heavily slanted towards people who have interests related to me, we moderate based on our own community standards, and all that. Many of the people I interact with are on similarly-sized instances that have their own noticeable community.
@ricci @thisismissem local-only posts is something that people have beel asking for for ages and Gargron has always fought against it. That led to the creation of the beautiful Hometown, along with a beautiful guide on how to make your own community: https://runyourown.social/ . Gargron has always said that this is not the kind of community they wanted, they want a distributed twitter. So, blacksky is only doing what others that are not mastodon have been doing for some time now -
I think it's nuts that Masto doesn't have local-only posts, it would be the easiest thing in the world to do, it's entirely natural to the underlying data model. Good on blacksky for building it first.
Re: @thisismissem 's point AP not directly matching how communities form, this is the kind of thing I had in mind when I said that neither AP nor activitypub is directly modeling human interaction. But AP is closer because there are large chunks of the fediverse where it does actually fit community. The instance I'm on is one such example, the local feed is heavily slanted towards people who have interests related to me, we moderate based on our own community standards, and all that. Many of the people I interact with are on similarly-sized instances that have their own noticeable community.
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@ricci @thisismissem local-only posts is something that people have beel asking for for ages and Gargron has always fought against it. That led to the creation of the beautiful Hometown, along with a beautiful guide on how to make your own community: https://runyourown.social/ . Gargron has always said that this is not the kind of community they wanted, they want a distributed twitter. So, blacksky is only doing what others that are not mastodon have been doing for some time now
@rakoo @ricci now that Gargron is out of the way, I really hope @mellifluousbox and @renchap bring local-only posts to mainline Mastodon. It'd be such a huge help to moderators & server admins, it's not funny, and that's before you even get to the needs of server-local communities that you *don't* want federating.
Also, custom collections support to support addressing for Groups would be fantastic. I know Jesse from Frequency already has an implementation of that on top of a mastodon codebase
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@thisismissem @rakoo I'm using AP to mean ActivityPub. I was agreeing with your point that in many spaces, AP doesn't necessarily line up with community boundaries - but also pointing out that sometimes it does, and this happens much more naturally with AP than atproto
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I'll say that the verticals are one of the aspects of atproto that I am *least* excited about. I am extremely unexcited about the idea that takedowns on my social media account could also take down my git hosting repos and my blog and my instant messaging and my ....
But hey, 'login with facebook' does exist, and I guess a lot of people must use it? so I guess there is some revealed preference there.
@ricci @rakoo that shouldn't happen!
It's a bug, at least, that's how it's described today.
This is how it's envisioned to work: https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3m2j6ccx2bs2t
Essentially, if you're on a bsky PDS, and you act poorly on bsky.app, as long as you've not done anything strictly illegal or network abuse, the ban should only be on bsky.app — though they could also tell you: hey, we don't want to host your repo/account anymore, please find another PDS host (and provide instructions and state "even though we're asking you to move, moving will not change you being banned from bsky.app"
The only time your repo should be taken down is *if* you post strictly illegal content that your PDS host has liabilities for (CSAM, TVEC, etc), and bsky.app would send your PDS admin a notification informing them that bsky has detected that content on their server.
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@thisismissem @rakoo I'm using AP to mean ActivityPub. I was agreeing with your point that in many spaces, AP doesn't necessarily line up with community boundaries - but also pointing out that sometimes it does, and this happens much more naturally with AP than atproto
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@ricci @rakoo that shouldn't happen!
It's a bug, at least, that's how it's described today.
This is how it's envisioned to work: https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3m2j6ccx2bs2t
Essentially, if you're on a bsky PDS, and you act poorly on bsky.app, as long as you've not done anything strictly illegal or network abuse, the ban should only be on bsky.app — though they could also tell you: hey, we don't want to host your repo/account anymore, please find another PDS host (and provide instructions and state "even though we're asking you to move, moving will not change you being banned from bsky.app"
The only time your repo should be taken down is *if* you post strictly illegal content that your PDS host has liabilities for (CSAM, TVEC, etc), and bsky.app would send your PDS admin a notification informing them that bsky has detected that content on their server.
@thisismissem @rakoo I'm aware of this.
It's a bug enabled by the shape of the protocol, and I have to trust that the company will not decide to make this policy in the future.
And yes I can be on my own PDS (I am), but I still need to trust them to not start doing relay takedowns, because that is not something I can easily "move" from, that's up to whatever apps / appviews decide
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@thisismissem @rakoo oops, yes, dumb error, edited
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@thisismissem @rakoo I'm aware of this.
It's a bug enabled by the shape of the protocol, and I have to trust that the company will not decide to make this policy in the future.
And yes I can be on my own PDS (I am), but I still need to trust them to not start doing relay takedowns, because that is not something I can easily "move" from, that's up to whatever apps / appviews decide
@ricci @rakoo arguably a repo should probably advertise it's (primary) relays, which could help here (though would be complex.
Relays should be simple pipes, and only network level abuse would be moderated (or that strictly illegal content that PDSes should action).
That's the same as like how cloudflare describes itself (even though they took down switter)
But I think we'll get there with regards to correct moderation at the correct layers soon or eventually. I definitely want to see this fixed
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@ricci @rakoo arguably a repo should probably advertise it's (primary) relays, which could help here (though would be complex.
Relays should be simple pipes, and only network level abuse would be moderated (or that strictly illegal content that PDSes should action).
That's the same as like how cloudflare describes itself (even though they took down switter)
But I think we'll get there with regards to correct moderation at the correct layers soon or eventually. I definitely want to see this fixed
@thisismissem @rakoo Having the repo advertise preferred relay(s) would be a pretty major architectural change, since it implies that apps or appviews are now required in some sense to dynamically adjust the set of relays they use based on user preferences - I think that'd be an *interesting* architectural change, but as you say it's a complex one.
Relying on relays to be neutral just goes against everything we know about how communication and web infrastructure has evolved. It all starts out neutral until the money people and the censors show up.
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@rakoo @ricci now that Gargron is out of the way, I really hope @mellifluousbox and @renchap bring local-only posts to mainline Mastodon. It'd be such a huge help to moderators & server admins, it's not funny, and that's before you even get to the needs of server-local communities that you *don't* want federating.
Also, custom collections support to support addressing for Groups would be fantastic. I know Jesse from Frequency already has an implementation of that on top of a mastodon codebase
@thisismissem @smallcircles @rakoo @ricci @mellifluousbox @renchap And more than 500 chars on vanilla Masto pug-leeeeeassse!
