I gotta admit, I am loving how little of the conversation is just "BlueSky bad!
-
@stefan @evana @mastodonmigration yes, if this is a server feature and not a client one, then my concern goes away.
But I can 100% guarantee you that there is a small group of people that do this for very positive and supportive reasons that will be quite miffed if we do this (which just might be necessary!)
This is why I'm trying to find other ways of looking at this problem. I want to solve it! Just trying to find the right lever.
So the needs or desires of that small group of people who's getting miffed has higher priority than people receiving harm and threats?
-
So the needs or desires of that small group of people who's getting miffed has higher priority than people receiving harm and threats?
@tomjennings @stefan @evana @mastodonmigration
Of course not. I'm just saying I open source software has these arguments all the time and we need to be respectful of others
-
So the needs or desires of that small group of people who's getting miffed has higher priority than people receiving harm and threats?
@tomjennings @scottjenson @stefan @evana
Tom, don't think that was what Scott was saying. This is a brainstorming session. As such, all aspects of the matter are being put on the table. The first step is to identify the problem in all it's complexities. It's a long way from making any kind of priority calls or implementation decisions. Feel like it is important to assume everyone has good intentions to constructively address the issue at this point.
-
@evana @mastodonmigration @stefan Agree with your points but we're still circling around the issue of how likely this happens (and how)
I DONT want to imply I don't believe people that say it happens, I'm just trying to understand the broader flow, i.e. how can a Brigade operate in secrecy? It just seems very fragile as they likely do other things that get them banned. Have we seen a large scale brigade that worked this way for a while? What causes them to trip up? Let's focus on that.
@scottjenson @evana @mastodonmigration @stefan
> they likely do other things that get them banned
not necessarily? think of a messaging app that supports group messages. you create a group chat with your buddies and one other person. the person being added can:
- not accept the invite
- remove themselves from the group
- block people in the group
- report messages in the groupin the last scenario, mods do not have full context. the user has to attach any relevant context.
-
@scottjenson @evana @mastodonmigration @stefan
> they likely do other things that get them banned
not necessarily? think of a messaging app that supports group messages. you create a group chat with your buddies and one other person. the person being added can:
- not accept the invite
- remove themselves from the group
- block people in the group
- report messages in the groupin the last scenario, mods do not have full context. the user has to attach any relevant context.
@scottjenson @evana @mastodonmigration @stefan but because there is a private aspect, you would be free to act differently than you would otherwise act in public, and your only avenue for consequences would be *if* the added person reports y'all.
so the gap here is that people aren't being made aware that they can/should report such harassment. i don't think doing away with private posts solves anything.
one thing that could be done is to filter followers-only like mentioned-only, but...
-
@scottjenson @evana @mastodonmigration @stefan but because there is a private aspect, you would be free to act differently than you would otherwise act in public, and your only avenue for consequences would be *if* the added person reports y'all.
so the gap here is that people aren't being made aware that they can/should report such harassment. i don't think doing away with private posts solves anything.
one thing that could be done is to filter followers-only like mentioned-only, but...
@scottjenson @evana @mastodonmigration @stefan ...such a change might be unexpected if not communicated appropriately ahead-of-time. in effect, it would collapse the "public"/"followers"/"direct" into just "public"/"not public".
you'd probably also want the filter to be a bit smarter about what counts as "unsolicited", because even public mentions can be "unsolicited".
and of course i'd be remiss to leave out my usual advocacy for allowing people to create explicit contexts which they control!
-
@scottjenson @mastodonmigration @stefan followers-only posts require the *victim* to report the attack. Depending on the volume and ferocity of the harassment, the victim may not be in a position to do this (either due to harassment across several channels, or unawareness of reporting and moderation options).
As an example, I piled into this thread to help out with an example, but I wouldn't have seen it to help out if it were "followers only".
I can see the positive value in being able to restrict a discussion, but it seems like "all my friends plus one more" might be a dangerous model.
Take all this with a grain of salt, as I haven't actually been subject to this kind of abuse, and am privileged in a bunch of ways which probably shield me from having to consider the worst of it.
evana@hachyderm.io scottjenson@social.coop mastodonmigration@mastodon.online stefan@stefanbohacek.online would it help if selecting "followers only" didn't also include any mentioned people who are not followers? so mentions only are only shown the post and notified if you post publicly or if they are already following you.
-
@mastodonmigration But yes, that particular issue, I have not heard/seen any updates either.
@stefan @mastodonmigration @scottjenson @mekkaokereke
One option to prevent hidden abusive pile-on in the replies would be to allow only new posts to select a "privacy level". Every single reply in a thread or sub-thread should mandatorily inherit the "privacy level" of the parent post.
I wrote a thread elaborating on this argument.
Feral Thoughts (@feralthoughts@union.place)
🧵arguing that we should do away with “privacy level” options for reply posts (in case of Mastodon and Mastodon-like Fediverse platforms which follow that model), to eliminate the ability of racists to hide their abuse of black users behind “mentioned users only” replies. #Fediverse #Mastodon #PostPrivacy (continues)
The Union Place (union.place)
-
@juergen_hubert @ainmosni @IveyJanette @mekkaokereke
Here are some threads by @feralthoughts on the current issues with bringing in folks from the global south that I found very thoughtful and informative:
https://union.place/@feralthoughts/114030586394502623
https://union.place/@feralthoughts/114037639193329163@ricci @juergen_hubert @ainmosni @IveyJanette
This one is not on the "global south invisibility" problem, but I wrote a short thread suggesting that an option to prevent hidden abusive racist pile-on in the replies would be to allow only new posts to select a "privacy level". Every single reply in a thread or sub-thread should mandatorily inherit the "privacy level" of the parent post.
In case you are interested:
Feral Thoughts (@feralthoughts@union.place)
🧵arguing that we should do away with “privacy level” options for reply posts (in case of Mastodon and Mastodon-like Fediverse platforms which follow that model), to eliminate the ability of racists to hide their abuse of black users behind “mentioned users only” replies. #Fediverse #Mastodon #PostPrivacy (continues)
The Union Place (union.place)
-
evana@hachyderm.io scottjenson@social.coop mastodonmigration@mastodon.online stefan@stefanbohacek.online would it help if selecting "followers only" didn't also include any mentioned people who are not followers? so mentions only are only shown the post and notified if you post publicly or if they are already following you.
@mayel @evana @scottjenson @mastodonmigration @stefan It would only make it a little more difficult. The 'brigading' is now a two-step process for every participant.
The vector is really the 'followers-only' option. If we want to keep it, no way around sending a mandatory copy to a designated 'brigading moderator'.
