Jack Dorsey skipped ActivityPub, built AtProto, lost Twitter, funded Bluesky, watched it become a company with VCs and a board, said it was "repeating all the mistakes," left, and now funds Nostr.
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@evan @dansup The number of developers and communities who've been pushed out of the Fedi because of this elitist mentality should be alarming to any builder in this space. Are we ever going to learn to do better, or are we going to continue pushing more people away?
The vibes aren't good, Evan, and I really hope you're aware of that, because vibes make or break a community.
@evan @dansup There are brilliant developers who were building in between the two spaces who decided it wasn't worth the hate they were receiving. If you want, I can share how much hate I get for bridging, and the mass majority comes from this side of the ecosystem, I just continue on because I believe in the mission.
It's a culture problem, and you two have the power to help change that.
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Jack Dorsey skipped ActivityPub, built AtProto, lost Twitter, funded Bluesky, watched it become a company with VCs and a board, said it was "repeating all the mistakes," left, and now funds Nostr.
The fediverse is the only one in this story that never needed a billionaire to survive.
And it never will.
@dansup @quillmatiq while I agree on your take on bluesky, the existence of Blacksky and others show that atproto is a viable decentralized protocol and is beyond the control of bluesky, the company. Im hopeful there will be more bridges that will connect activitypub to atproto like Bridgyfed or services that have interoperability built in like Wafrn
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Pushing a separate protocol has undoubtedly hurt the entire distributed social networking movement. It was done intentionally.
It shouldn't have worked. ActivityPub should have been more widespread by the time that ATProto launched, so that a competing protocol would have no chance to split the network.
But we weren't, and it did. It's at least partially our fault that a house-brand protocol has been such a serious threat.
@evan @dansup @quillmatiq Evan, perhaps spend some time introspecting why ActivityPub didn't get more adoption and why developers love AT Protocol.
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@evan @dansup @quillmatiq Evan, perhaps spend some time introspecting why ActivityPub didn't get more adoption and why developers love AT Protocol.
@thisismissem @evan @quillmatiq more adoption, like Metas Threads? There are dozens of projects on the fediverse, more than atproto, so thatβs not really coming across as you think it is lol
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@thisismissem @evan @quillmatiq more adoption, like Metas Threads? There are dozens of projects on the fediverse, more than atproto, so thatβs not really coming across as you think it is lol
@dansup So ActivityPub needed VC money, too?
Btw, Fediverse Threads is in maintenance mode and is one-way, basically RSS with likes, so are we going to even consider it a part of the ecosystem at this point?
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@thisismissem @evan @quillmatiq more adoption, like Metas Threads? There are dozens of projects on the fediverse, more than atproto, so thatβs not really coming across as you think it is lol
@dansup @thisismissem @evan @quillmatiq And virtually all of them literally cannot function without Bluesky.
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@evan @dansup I'm not gaslighting anyone, Evan, and I would hope that you would know me better than that after our conversations.
You can throw stones back at the Fedi's bet around Meta and all the other companies that promised ActivityPub integration but never delivered. What are we even doing here?
@quillmatiq @dansup I know you and I appreciate your work.
Coalitions exist when different factions and players share some common goals. But they don't have to share *all* the same goals to work together.
I think there's a good case to be made that the ATProto community and the Fediverse can be a coalition to work together on the Open Social Web.
That doesn't mean we can't talk about our differences, or advocate for our own protocols and technologies.
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@dansup So ActivityPub needed VC money, too?
Btw, Fediverse Threads is in maintenance mode and is one-way, basically RSS with likes, so are we going to even consider it a part of the ecosystem at this point?
@dansup Also, I'm sorry, I have to ask - but how many independent services do you think atproto has right now? Because it's not just a handful, as you're making it out to be.
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@evan @dansup @quillmatiq Evan, perhaps spend some time introspecting why ActivityPub didn't get more adoption and why developers love AT Protocol.
@thisismissem @evan @dansup @quillmatiq
Why do you think this is Emelia?
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@dansup So ActivityPub needed VC money, too?
Btw, Fediverse Threads is in maintenance mode and is one-way, basically RSS with likes, so are we going to even consider it a part of the ecosystem at this point?
@quillmatiq @dansup @thisismissem Friend, what's your goal here?
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@dansup Also, I'm sorry, I have to ask - but how many independent services do you think atproto has right now? Because it's not just a handful, as you're making it out to be.
@quillmatiq @dansup @thisismissem @evan
How many Anuj?
And, what constitutes an AT Proto "independent service"?
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@dansup Also, I'm sorry, I have to ask - but how many independent services do you think atproto has right now? Because it's not just a handful, as you're making it out to be.
@quillmatiq @dansup @thisismissem @evan I don't know every atproto service out there, but I know Leaflet, Blacksky, and I think there's something being worked on called EuroSky? I know there's more, I remember researching this at one point but that was a while ago so I forgot a lot of the other ones but yeah, all this talk of atproto shouldn't have had a chance honestly doesn't help, we should be making the entire ecosystem better by trying to make the experience the best it can be across both ActivityPub and atproto.
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@evan @dansup There are brilliant developers who were building in between the two spaces who decided it wasn't worth the hate they were receiving. If you want, I can share how much hate I get for bridging, and the mass majority comes from this side of the ecosystem, I just continue on because I believe in the mission.
It's a culture problem, and you two have the power to help change that.
@quillmatiq @dansup I really appreciate the work that you and A New Social do to keep the social web stitched together.
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@dansup @thisismissem @evan @quillmatiq And virtually all of them literally cannot function without Bluesky.
@reflex @dansup @thisismissem @evan @quillmatiq
Seems like there are some AT Proto experts here. Perhaps someone can address the issue of the inherent limitations of the protocol due to quadratic scaling? Or, credibly refute this assertion.
Mastodon Migration (@mastodonmigration@mastodon.online)
@FediThing@chinwag.org One thing AT Proto advocates studiously ignore are discussions about whether AT Proto is actually capable of being truly decentralized. @cwebber@social.coop has raised the issue of quadratic scaling of the network as it goes wide (more instances). If this is true, and no one has refuted it, then it will be effectively impossible for the network to accommodate more large instances. https://dustycloud.org/blog/re-re-bluesky-decentralization/ (see section on quadratic scaling) #ATProrocol #Bluesky #QuadraticScaling
Mastodon (mastodon.online)
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@quillmatiq @dansup I know you and I appreciate your work.
Coalitions exist when different factions and players share some common goals. But they don't have to share *all* the same goals to work together.
I think there's a good case to be made that the ATProto community and the Fediverse can be a coalition to work together on the Open Social Web.
That doesn't mean we can't talk about our differences, or advocate for our own protocols and technologies.
@quillmatiq @dansup And, absolutely, I'm really concerned about how we get more of those companies re-engaged.
It wasn't the only factor, but having multiple protocols in the space makes it more likely that implementers take a wait-and-see approach and don't use either.
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@evan @dansup @quillmatiq Evan, perhaps spend some time introspecting why ActivityPub didn't get more adoption and why developers love AT Protocol.
@thisismissem @dansup @quillmatiq This is my number one area of interest!
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@evan @dansup What's hurt it more is not working together on a unified strategy and putting up walls every time there's a chance to do so.
There are folks on the atproto side who have shown an intent to bridge with services like Pixelfed and Loops, *including* adding the logo on the posts to help promote services. We can either move together, or we can continue to push each other away and fall to trillion-dollar companies building their own ecosystems, some of whom the Fedi bet the farm on.
@quillmatiq I like your vision of peace and collaboration. But when there is a working protocol and a team builds a completely new one that is not compatible with the existing. Who is building a wall? When I want to build a new "open social web" service or client, how many protocols should I need to implement? This is not about if mastodon or pixelfed could be Atproto compatible, it's not about services it's about the protocol. @evan @dansup
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@evan @dansup The number of developers and communities who've been pushed out of the Fedi because of this elitist mentality should be alarming to any builder in this space. Are we ever going to learn to do better, or are we going to continue pushing more people away?
The vibes aren't good, Evan, and I really hope you're aware of that, because vibes make or break a community.
@quillmatiq @dansup I don't have a lot of examples of this, honestly.
I can think of a few great ActivityPub implementers who dual-stack, like micro.blog and Friendica, but I don't know of ones that stopped supporting ActivityPub because someone said Bluesky was started by a billionaire.
I think it's *great* when servers and clients support AP, regardless of what other protocols or services they support.
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@quillmatiq @dansup @thisismissem Friend, what's your goal here?
@evan What is the goal of calling out the history of atproto when the majority of the current community, including Bluesky, wants to collaborate? I'm trying to show that throwing stones is unproductive because there are stones lying everywhere.
