Long-form articles
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@silverpill @laurenshof
Thank you for your observations. In my view, the problem is that people are trying to solve challenges that do not exist.
Mastodon aims to be a replacement for Twitter. Accordingly, they have never supported articles. This circumstance ties up developer resources in other projects for issues that have already been resolved. This hinders innovation on all fronts.@feb @laurenshof I don't even blame Mastodon, they have the right to not implement the feature. What I find baffling is how an entire movement was created to solve a non-existent problem. Everyone talks about long form content like it is some grand challenge, but it is just Mastodon and a one line of code
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Long-form articles
I was reading the Fediverse Report – #128 post by @laurenshof and several sentences caught my attention:
Ghost’s connection to the fediverse currently means that following a Ghost blog from your fediverse account results in seeing a post with the article headline and a URL
That's how Mastodon displays
Articleobjects: only a headline and a URL (see issue #24079). However, Mastodon is the only fediverse platform that removes content from articles. According to funfedi.dev data, others don't removecontent:GoToSocial, Hollo, Misskey, Mitra, Pleroma. These platforms either have full support for long form content or use graceful degradation. The dataset doesn't include some other popular platforms like Friendica, but I am sure they also display long form content just fine. So this really has nothing to do with Fediverse or #ActivityPub.
Fediverse platform developers (including Mastodon, Ghost, WordPress, WriteFreely and more) are collaborating on creating a space on the fediverse that suites the need of blogging and articles well
I keep seeing this again and again, it increasingly looks like an attempt to take credit for solving the problem with articles in ActivityPub. But the problem doesn't exist, it is literally a flaw in a single implementation that can be fixed with a single line of code.
There are, of course, real problems with rich content. How to prevent tracking when remote media is embedded in the page? What to do with CSS? What about interactive content? Unfortunately, I haven't seen anyone talking about these problems.
This is a long form article, by the way. You can read it from Mastodon.
You can read it from #Elgg as well which also supports long-form content
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@feb @laurenshof I don't even blame Mastodon, they have the right to not implement the feature. What I find baffling is how an entire movement was created to solve a non-existent problem. Everyone talks about long form content like it is some grand challenge, but it is just Mastodon and a one line of code
@silverpill Mastodon would actually mostly have to remove code to make Article-type objects work as intended by the spec and by other implementations. That's the hilarious part.
CC: @Laurens Hof
#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #ActivityPub #ArticleType -
Long-form articles
I was reading the Fediverse Report – #128 post by @laurenshof and several sentences caught my attention:
Ghost’s connection to the fediverse currently means that following a Ghost blog from your fediverse account results in seeing a post with the article headline and a URL
That's how Mastodon displays
Articleobjects: only a headline and a URL (see issue #24079). However, Mastodon is the only fediverse platform that removes content from articles. According to funfedi.dev data, others don't removecontent:GoToSocial, Hollo, Misskey, Mitra, Pleroma. These platforms either have full support for long form content or use graceful degradation. The dataset doesn't include some other popular platforms like Friendica, but I am sure they also display long form content just fine. So this really has nothing to do with Fediverse or #ActivityPub.
Fediverse platform developers (including Mastodon, Ghost, WordPress, WriteFreely and more) are collaborating on creating a space on the fediverse that suites the need of blogging and articles well
I keep seeing this again and again, it increasingly looks like an attempt to take credit for solving the problem with articles in ActivityPub. But the problem doesn't exist, it is literally a flaw in a single implementation that can be fixed with a single line of code.
There are, of course, real problems with rich content. How to prevent tracking when remote media is embedded in the page? What to do with CSS? What about interactive content? Unfortunately, I haven't seen anyone talking about these problems.
This is a long form article, by the way. You can read it from Mastodon.
The long form content "movement" (of which I'm adjacent to but not fully involved) started up because two big implementors, Ghost and WordPress, were running into the same issues AP devs have been seeing this whole time, that Mastodon reduces articles to a title and link.
The difference is devs got together and pushed for changes, and got them done. Mastodon no longer treats articles the way they used to.
Now you can send in a summary that is used, and that gets you heaps closer to a better UX than what came before.
The long form text FEP aims to provide a way to send an alternative representation for the ubiquitous microblog software on the fediverse, in the form of a note, while still maintaining the use of other objects types (e.g. article)
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The long form content "movement" (of which I'm adjacent to but not fully involved) started up because two big implementors, Ghost and WordPress, were running into the same issues AP devs have been seeing this whole time, that Mastodon reduces articles to a title and link.
The difference is devs got together and pushed for changes, and got them done. Mastodon no longer treats articles the way they used to.
Now you can send in a summary that is used, and that gets you heaps closer to a better UX than what came before.
The long form text FEP aims to provide a way to send an alternative representation for the ubiquitous microblog software on the fediverse, in the form of a note, while still maintaining the use of other objects types (e.g. article)
@julian
It's not that the developers hadn't talked to each other before. On the contrary. The collaboration was excellent and characterised by mutual consideration and respect. This was the only way the Federation could succeed.It is enough for just one project to break out of this common discourse. Then the problems described above by @silverpill arise.
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@julian
It's not that the developers hadn't talked to each other before. On the contrary. The collaboration was excellent and characterised by mutual consideration and respect. This was the only way the Federation could succeed.It is enough for just one project to break out of this common discourse. Then the problems described above by @silverpill arise.
@feb@loma.ml @julian@community.nodebb.org @silverpill@mitra.social
The problem could have been formulated more clearly in the article, that it is not the Fediverse that has this problem with the display, but Mastodon alone.
And not the other access points.
Something like this also belongs -
The long form content "movement" (of which I'm adjacent to but not fully involved) started up because two big implementors, Ghost and WordPress, were running into the same issues AP devs have been seeing this whole time, that Mastodon reduces articles to a title and link.
The difference is devs got together and pushed for changes, and got them done. Mastodon no longer treats articles the way they used to.
Now you can send in a summary that is used, and that gets you heaps closer to a better UX than what came before.
The long form text FEP aims to provide a way to send an alternative representation for the ubiquitous microblog software on the fediverse, in the form of a note, while still maintaining the use of other objects types (e.g. article)
@julianNow you can send in a summary that is used, and that gets you heaps closer to a better UX than what came before.
Mastodon has misused summaries for content warnings since someone from the demo scene sent in a PR for Mastodon to do so in 2017.
So this means that Mastodon stopped doing so on Article-type objects and actually regards summaries as summaries and handles them accordingly instead?
And when and with which version was this rolled out?
Or did Mastodon insist in the creation of yet another text field which has to be rolled out to all macroblogging and long-form blogging server applications? Even though ActivityPub does have a perfectly good summary field, only that Mastodon uses it for CWs?
Although I must say that the step from displaying Article-type objects as title (if there is any) + link to displaying them as title (if there is any) + summary (if there is any) + link is not that big. Mobile users who see their Web browsers popping up as a nuisance will still ignore your content.
On the other hand, this does not only appease Eugen Rochko, the Lord and Creator of the Fediverse and all of its technology (according to the Gospel of Mastodon, anyway), but also those Mastodonians who demand there must not be any posts with over 500 characters in the Fediverse, and who immediately block everyone who exceeds 500 characters even only once even on the federated timeline.
Besides, there is still "long-form", multiple-paragraph content going out as Note-type objects. In general, I guess that comments always go out as Note-type objects.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #CW #CWs #CWMeta #ContentWarning #ContentWarnings #ContentWarningMeta #Summary #Fediverse #ActivityPub #Mastodon #ArticleType #LongFormContent -
@julian
It's not that the developers hadn't talked to each other before. On the contrary. The collaboration was excellent and characterised by mutual consideration and respect. This was the only way the Federation could succeed.It is enough for just one project to break out of this common discourse. Then the problems described above by @silverpill arise.
@Matthias Particularly when this one project is so big that it is "the Fediverse" for half of its users and the beginning, the centre and the gold standard of the Fediverse for many others.
#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #NotOnlyMastodon #FediverseIsNotMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse -
The long form content "movement" (of which I'm adjacent to but not fully involved) started up because two big implementors, Ghost and WordPress, were running into the same issues AP devs have been seeing this whole time, that Mastodon reduces articles to a title and link.
The difference is devs got together and pushed for changes, and got them done. Mastodon no longer treats articles the way they used to.
Now you can send in a summary that is used, and that gets you heaps closer to a better UX than what came before.
The long form text FEP aims to provide a way to send an alternative representation for the ubiquitous microblog software on the fediverse, in the form of a note, while still maintaining the use of other objects types (e.g. article)
@julian So all this is just an elaborate ploy to convince Mastodon devs to display
summary? It might make sense, but then I don't understand why it is presented as a protocol problem.The FEP won't make any difference. I've spent of lot of time tweaking my software in order to make rich content look good across the Fediverse (including Mastodon), and I can confidently say that Long form text FEP is not helpful at all. It is a mix of obvious requirements (which are already present in AP & AS), some arbitrary recommendations (like the set of allowed tags), and bad ideas (like the
previewproperty). This is because it is not written by a developer: the author simply doesn't know what needs to be done in order to render an article across 10 different implementations.When it comes to long form content, the best resource is @helge 's support tables. For example, there is an analysis of what HTML tags are supported in
Article.content: https://funfedi.dev/support_tables/generated/html_tags_article/No one talks about this project, but it is far more useful than anything done so far by the so called "longformers".
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@julian
It's not that the developers hadn't talked to each other before. On the contrary. The collaboration was excellent and characterised by mutual consideration and respect. This was the only way the Federation could succeed.It is enough for just one project to break out of this common discourse. Then the problems described above by @silverpill arise.
@feb @silverpill @julian I also twitch every time I see long-form content described as some kind of gnarly problem. But Julian describes a real change that's happened recently, although I wouldn't phrase it the way he did. Partly it's that Mastodon has become more open to collaboration. But mostly it's that the dev community has realised the need for working groups and formal standards processes, rather than a crowd of developers pursuing ideas individually and then arguing with each other about what's "standard". And that really has made the difference for long-form content. -
@julian So all this is just an elaborate ploy to convince Mastodon devs to display
summary? It might make sense, but then I don't understand why it is presented as a protocol problem.The FEP won't make any difference. I've spent of lot of time tweaking my software in order to make rich content look good across the Fediverse (including Mastodon), and I can confidently say that Long form text FEP is not helpful at all. It is a mix of obvious requirements (which are already present in AP & AS), some arbitrary recommendations (like the set of allowed tags), and bad ideas (like the
previewproperty). This is because it is not written by a developer: the author simply doesn't know what needs to be done in order to render an article across 10 different implementations.When it comes to long form content, the best resource is @helge 's support tables. For example, there is an analysis of what HTML tags are supported in
Article.content: https://funfedi.dev/support_tables/generated/html_tags_article/No one talks about this project, but it is far more useful than anything done so far by the so called "longformers".
@silverpill Who are the longformers anyway?
They're those who either are commercial or looking for professional/commercial users or both. Flipboard. Automattic (WordPress). Ghost. These kinds.
They know themselves. They know each other. And they know Mastodon. And that's it.
None of them has ever heard of Pleroma or Akkoma.
None of them has ever heard of Misskey or the Forkeys.
None of them has ever heard of Mitra.
None of them has ever heard of GoToSocial.
None of them has ever heard of Hollo.
None of them has ever heard of Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) or Forte, even though Friendica and Hubzilla are both older than Mastodon. And apparently, neither has @Helge. But then again, Friendica and its nomadic, security-enhanced descendants are being overlooked by almost everyone. That's why there's always on-going work for features to be "introduced to the Fediverse" which Friendica has had for a decade and a half.
Granted, the HTML support on Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte can be summarised with "yes". But elaborate tables that show what either of them supports how would be very useful.
Also, granted, everything I've mentioned above (normally) uses something else than HTML for formatting in the frontend. For example, Misskey and all Forkeys use MFM ("Misskey-Flavoured Markdown"). Friendica uses extended BBcode with the option to use Markdown instead. Hubzilla uses even more extended BBcode. (streams) and Forte can use the same even more extended BBcode and Markdown and HTML at the same time within the same post, although not all markup languages support all features.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Mitra #GoToSocial #Hollo #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #LongFormContent #BBcode #Markdown #HTML #TextFormatting -
@silverpill Who are the longformers anyway?
They're those who either are commercial or looking for professional/commercial users or both. Flipboard. Automattic (WordPress). Ghost. These kinds.
They know themselves. They know each other. And they know Mastodon. And that's it.
None of them has ever heard of Pleroma or Akkoma.
None of them has ever heard of Misskey or the Forkeys.
None of them has ever heard of Mitra.
None of them has ever heard of GoToSocial.
None of them has ever heard of Hollo.
None of them has ever heard of Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) or Forte, even though Friendica and Hubzilla are both older than Mastodon. And apparently, neither has @Helge. But then again, Friendica and its nomadic, security-enhanced descendants are being overlooked by almost everyone. That's why there's always on-going work for features to be "introduced to the Fediverse" which Friendica has had for a decade and a half.
Granted, the HTML support on Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte can be summarised with "yes". But elaborate tables that show what either of them supports how would be very useful.
Also, granted, everything I've mentioned above (normally) uses something else than HTML for formatting in the frontend. For example, Misskey and all Forkeys use MFM ("Misskey-Flavoured Markdown"). Friendica uses extended BBcode with the option to use Markdown instead. Hubzilla uses even more extended BBcode. (streams) and Forte can use the same even more extended BBcode and Markdown and HTML at the same time within the same post, although not all markup languages support all features.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Mitra #GoToSocial #Hollo #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #LongFormContent #BBcode #Markdown #HTML #TextFormatting@jupiter_rowland Between servers, it is almost always HTML (the only exception I know is PeerTube, which for some reason sends markdown).
>But elaborate tables that show what either of them supports how would be very useful.
There is an open issue about Streams: https://codeberg.org/helge/funfedidev/issues/93
Servers that don't support Mastodon API need additional work, and all the work is done by one person who is volunteering, so it's not in the tables yet. -
@silverpill Who are the longformers anyway?
They're those who either are commercial or looking for professional/commercial users or both. Flipboard. Automattic (WordPress). Ghost. These kinds.
They know themselves. They know each other. And they know Mastodon. And that's it.
None of them has ever heard of Pleroma or Akkoma.
None of them has ever heard of Misskey or the Forkeys.
None of them has ever heard of Mitra.
None of them has ever heard of GoToSocial.
None of them has ever heard of Hollo.
None of them has ever heard of Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) or Forte, even though Friendica and Hubzilla are both older than Mastodon. And apparently, neither has @Helge. But then again, Friendica and its nomadic, security-enhanced descendants are being overlooked by almost everyone. That's why there's always on-going work for features to be "introduced to the Fediverse" which Friendica has had for a decade and a half.
Granted, the HTML support on Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte can be summarised with "yes". But elaborate tables that show what either of them supports how would be very useful.
Also, granted, everything I've mentioned above (normally) uses something else than HTML for formatting in the frontend. For example, Misskey and all Forkeys use MFM ("Misskey-Flavoured Markdown"). Friendica uses extended BBcode with the option to use Markdown instead. Hubzilla uses even more extended BBcode. (streams) and Forte can use the same even more extended BBcode and Markdown and HTML at the same time within the same post, although not all markup languages support all features.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Mitra #GoToSocial #Hollo #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #LongFormContent #BBcode #Markdown #HTML #TextFormattingjupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu said in Long-form articles:
> Who are the longformers anyway?Ghost, WordPress, WriteFreely, myself....
It's not an organization per se, just a couple of us who were present at FOSDEM and want better support for non-Note types.
You know, the drum I've been beating for about a year
But I would caution you against characterizing it in such a negative manner. We're well aware there are other software platforms speaking AP.
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@julian
Now you can send in a summary that is used, and that gets you heaps closer to a better UX than what came before.
Mastodon has misused summaries for content warnings since someone from the demo scene sent in a PR for Mastodon to do so in 2017.
So this means that Mastodon stopped doing so on Article-type objects and actually regards summaries as summaries and handles them accordingly instead?
And when and with which version was this rolled out?
Or did Mastodon insist in the creation of yet another text field which has to be rolled out to all macroblogging and long-form blogging server applications? Even though ActivityPub does have a perfectly good summary field, only that Mastodon uses it for CWs?
Although I must say that the step from displaying Article-type objects as title (if there is any) + link to displaying them as title (if there is any) + summary (if there is any) + link is not that big. Mobile users who see their Web browsers popping up as a nuisance will still ignore your content.
On the other hand, this does not only appease Eugen Rochko, the Lord and Creator of the Fediverse and all of its technology (according to the Gospel of Mastodon, anyway), but also those Mastodonians who demand there must not be any posts with over 500 characters in the Fediverse, and who immediately block everyone who exceeds 500 characters even only once even on the federated timeline.
Besides, there is still "long-form", multiple-paragraph content going out as Note-type objects. In general, I guess that comments always go out as Note-type objects.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #CW #CWs #CWMeta #ContentWarning #ContentWarnings #ContentWarningMeta #Summary #Fediverse #ActivityPub #Mastodon #ArticleType #LongFormContent@jupiter_rowland
Ich gehe davon aus, dass es um diese FEP geht.@julian
@silverpill
fep/fep/b2b8/fep-b2b8.md at main -
@julian
Now you can send in a summary that is used, and that gets you heaps closer to a better UX than what came before.
Mastodon has misused summaries for content warnings since someone from the demo scene sent in a PR for Mastodon to do so in 2017.
So this means that Mastodon stopped doing so on Article-type objects and actually regards summaries as summaries and handles them accordingly instead?
And when and with which version was this rolled out?
Or did Mastodon insist in the creation of yet another text field which has to be rolled out to all macroblogging and long-form blogging server applications? Even though ActivityPub does have a perfectly good summary field, only that Mastodon uses it for CWs?
Although I must say that the step from displaying Article-type objects as title (if there is any) + link to displaying them as title (if there is any) + summary (if there is any) + link is not that big. Mobile users who see their Web browsers popping up as a nuisance will still ignore your content.
On the other hand, this does not only appease Eugen Rochko, the Lord and Creator of the Fediverse and all of its technology (according to the Gospel of Mastodon, anyway), but also those Mastodonians who demand there must not be any posts with over 500 characters in the Fediverse, and who immediately block everyone who exceeds 500 characters even only once even on the federated timeline.
Besides, there is still "long-form", multiple-paragraph content going out as Note-type objects. In general, I guess that comments always go out as Note-type objects.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #CW #CWs #CWMeta #ContentWarning #ContentWarnings #ContentWarningMeta #Summary #Fediverse #ActivityPub #Mastodon #ArticleType #LongFormContent@jupiter_rowland
In English. I assume that this is about this FEP.geht.@julian
@silverpill
fep/fep/b2b8/fep-b2b8.md at main -
@jupiter_rowland
In English. I assume that this is about this FEP.geht.@julian
@silverpill
fep/fep/b2b8/fep-b2b8.md at mainfeb@loma.ml that's the one.
Summary is still used as a content warning field because of prior art, but only for notes now.
Otherwise it is treated as intended, as a summary.
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@julian
I'm not sure what impact this will have on applications such as Friendica and other macroblog applications. Here, the AP Fediverse is only part of the federation. The Diaspora protocol in the Fediverse expects an article type in order to display correctly. AP claimed to also take this project into account. This was implemented in the AP specification at the time.
The FEP negates longformers in the Fediverse by downgrading them to a blog view across the board. However, blogs are only one variation. The Fediverse would lose rather than gain from this.In my opinion, the changes described in the FEP involve unnecessary overhead. All this just because a project does not want to implement AP in a compliant manner?
Of course, every project has the right to implement things as they see fit. But if that means that everyone revolves around this circle, then it is a monopolised protocol.The social web is not a modern invention. Fifteen years ago, this was already the goal of all projects. This requires consideration beyond protocol boundaries. Diaspora continues to be part of the Federation.
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@julian That's very good news.
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@julian
I'm not sure what impact this will have on applications such as Friendica and other macroblog applications. Here, the AP Fediverse is only part of the federation. The Diaspora protocol in the Fediverse expects an article type in order to display correctly. AP claimed to also take this project into account. This was implemented in the AP specification at the time.
The FEP negates longformers in the Fediverse by downgrading them to a blog view across the board. However, blogs are only one variation. The Fediverse would lose rather than gain from this.In my opinion, the changes described in the FEP involve unnecessary overhead. All this just because a project does not want to implement AP in a compliant manner?
Of course, every project has the right to implement things as they see fit. But if that means that everyone revolves around this circle, then it is a monopolised protocol.The social web is not a modern invention. Fifteen years ago, this was already the goal of all projects. This requires consideration beyond protocol boundaries. Diaspora continues to be part of the Federation.
feb@loma.ml well the great thing is the FEP is still a draft and your opinions are welcome
cc jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu silverpill@mitra.social
