I would like to give an update on "federation" on Bluesky.

[fabrice@fosstodon.org]

@mcc Which PDS implementation are you self hosting with?

[mnordhoff@infosec.exchange]

@mcc There's also https://plc.directory/, the did:plc: database, also run by Bluesky.

("plc" stands for "placeholder", because they aspire to figure out something blockchain decentralized later.)

I think Bluesky can inconvenience people at best, or hijack their accounts at worst, especially if they were using a Bluesky PDS and Bluesky has all the keys. But I don't know/remember the exact implications.

[lrhodes@merveilles.town]

@esoteric_programmer @alter_kaker @mcc This is curious to me, because it looks like he's running a relay as an actual relay, just passing along data, which would explain why it's relatively low-cost. But the Relay described by the Bluesky white paper was more than just a relay— it was a replacement (or rebrand) for the earlier Big Data Server that was supposed to not only pass data, but also store and index it all for the network. And I can't tell if those other, more expensive functions got offloaded to other services, or if there are two types of relays in the infrastructure, or something else.

[ahimsa_pdx@disabled.social]

@mcc (if this is too off topic just ignore!)

I noticed that Blacksky asks for a birth date when you make a new account.

Bluesky didn't use to ask. No idea what they do now, but I would not have made an account with them if they required a birth date.

I'm sure people make up dates but I was still surprised. I'm guessing this is related to age verification laws? I don't know much about them.

Have any Fediverse servers started to ask for a birth date when a new account is created?

[mcc@mastodon.social]

@fabrice the official one. It seems fine.

Is there a reason to pick another?

[fabrice@fosstodon.org]

@mcc I don't know Maybe the Rust one from blacksky is less resource intensive?

[nullpotential@fedia.social]

@mcc "tried to adopt Fediverse first and basically got harassed off."

what does this mean, exactly? you don't have to interact with any other instance on the whole stack if you don't want to. what I'm guessing is this actually means people tried to signup for mastodon.social which is a shithole and then that got conflated with the whole fediverse

[mcc@mastodon.social]

@ahimsa_pdx I don't know. I didn't make an account, apparently.

[mcc@mastodon.social]

@mnordhoff yes, the plc is another really frustrating thing

[mcc@mastodon.social]

@fabrice yeah, I dunno. I haven't noticed a load problem from the typescript implementation. I don't have a very data oriented operation over here tho

[mcc@mastodon.social]

As an update since posting the above thread I have received replies from two people, one saying I am underestimating the level of stack coverage Blacksky has, another saying I am overestimating it.

The stack is just so tall! There are *so many* layers in this protocol's model. And it seems like every single one of them is an opportunity to introduce censorship

[ozamidas@mastodon.social]

@mcc Look, Bluesky has some nice advantages over the fediverse, mainly that it's not confusing at all because it gets to the point of just being old Twitter.

Federation is not their strong point and will never be, whether we like it or not, if you want federation and multiple communities, Activitypub is by far the best option.

[mastodonmigration@mastodon.online]

@bhasic @benroyce @swetland @mcc @aeva

Yup. And get very defensive about defending the charlatan.

[mat@friendica.exon.name]

@mcc @alter_kaker @esoteric_programmer I think the key point is: "Every Bluesky replica is, probably without realizing it, making a bet that Bluesky has already plateaued." This is a worthwhile experiment, as long as you can pull the plug at a moment's notice and lose nothing.

[mat@friendica.exon.name]

@lrhodes @mcc @alter_kaker @esoteric_programmer My understanding is that relays have a "replay since timestamp X" functionality, so that consumers that go down for a while can get back up and running. Originally relays by definition had to support any X back to the beginning of time, leading to absurd storage costs. Today they are allowed to have a much shorter window, meaning in effect the storage cost is insignificant and it's the network cost that dominates. Unless I'm mistaken, the canonical store of a user's posting history is and always was the PDS.

[mat@friendica.exon.name]

@mcc @alter_kaker "I would join the Bluesky API Touchers discord"

But... why are they not using... no OK never mind.

I'm so glad for this thread! I've had a bazillion questions about AT but nowhere to ask them. I really think there should be an "other protocols" channel on activitypub.space though. This is not "Technical discussion about ActivityPub-related topics" and sooner or later someone's gonna get angry at us.

[ikuturso@mastodon.social]

@esoteric_programmer @alter_kaker @mcc as I understand it the cost of a relay has gone down because you can run it without keeping full account of the message history for all time and instead restrict what you have to a time-window.

Raises the question of whether that's good enough if we want real alternatives to the official company infra though.

[eniko@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@mcc what exactly is the benefit of migrating to a non bluesky PDS? I understand being on an entirely different vertical stack like Blacksky or Northsky but what does being on a PDS give you? Aren't you still (almost) entirely at bluesky's mercy?

[ikuturso@mastodon.social]

@jrose @mcc Even the portability being better is somewhat theoretical right now because if your identity is using did:plc then you are unable to move away from did:plc and Bluesky PBC has custody of your keys... And also like people have noticed hosting your own data in a PDS does not really make you independent from their actions so the point of doing it is somewhat unclear.

[ikuturso@mastodon.social]

@nullpotential @mcc people on Bluesky who have soured on fedi often complain about having been lectured about using alt text and CWs for what it's worth.